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negative house values in the netherlands

  1. omeara29

    1,851 posts.

  2. daclaw

    539 posts.

    don't worry, housing doubles every 10 years.
    equity mate.

  3. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Dutch householders are given very generous taxbreaks on the mortgage of their place of residence. That involves a direct deduction of the interest on their mortgage from their income . Thereafter a deemed income is added back. On 400,000 euro loan the addback is 2400euro. Most generous concession in the world apparently. Encourages debt , slower paydown of debt.

    So the pertinent question is ? W h a t i s t h e
    r e l e v a n c e o f t h i s a r t i c l e ?

  4. Fat Bloater

    11,849 posts.

    Yes a housing bust is what you should expect after a housing boom regardless of what the insiders pump.

  5. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    You seem to move to so many threads with your perennial doom and gloom one liners as if we automatically need to accept your negative stance on things. So many booms have not led to busts - our property market attests to that for decades now and keeps confounding those who post stuff that happens in remote places with no thought to the peculiarities and dynamics of each country's market.

    The bears credo works like this. If there is bad news in another place's market it applies here - be it the Netherlands, Timbuktu - as long as it is googlable then post it without research. However if it is positive its a ponzi scheme and oh yes its a conspiwacy!

  6. AuCu

    1,772 posts.

    Passive 1

    RE: W h a t i s t h e
    r e l e v a n c e o f t h i s a r t i c l e ?

    Maureen Wachtels has been hit with a Black Swan, IMO, the article highlights the fact that Black Swans lurk everywhere, in every economy, industry, market and home.

  7. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Commie under every bed you mean.

  8. mike68

    7,980 posts.

    what is the relevance?

    and you want people to take you seriously?


    we also have artificial measures here that force up the price of property so people pay over the odds

    whats the difference?

    oh I get it.. its the WAY prices are forced up, not the actual inflated price itself - like that matters at all?

    next you will telling us mortgages are special here, they can be paid in magic beans

  9. Fat Bloater

    11,849 posts.

    "what is the relevance?

    and you want people to take you seriously?


    we also have artificial measures here that force up the price of property so people pay over the odds

    whats the difference? "

    Exactly Mike - It doesn't matter that the Netherlands chose different forms of market corrupting manipulation

  10. moondoong

    20,693 posts.

    I think it's highly relevant.

    A first world country, educated and skilled people, and they're apparently having a housing bust.

    But it cannot happen here, Australia is different.

    Just ask the permabulls.

  11. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    You and Mike need to research the subject a bit more fully - we have no monthly tax concession on PPOR, fellas are scared of your own shadows.

  12. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Another one parroting the same tune. Reminds me of pink and grey ........

  13. mike68

    7,980 posts.

    research what?

    If Australian home buyers hold say on average 200k debt and so do Dutch and they both represent 70% of the population and the debt cant be serviced whilst either are unemployed ..

    then what relevance does this tax concession have?

    but do please tell us why it does have relevance..

  14. Key takeaway Mike...don't bother

    You'd have more luck convincing Michael Jackson his last plastic surgery was a step too far.

  15. skypiliot

    5,048 posts.

    Just dont tell the pollies theers an election on and votes may be bought with tax concession

  16. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Happy to explain to those who can join the dots

  17. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Like your logic I am afraid - dead and buried. Hong Kong going gangbusters all bears , therefore world property market OK - puerile logic. We had all you guys predicting a US, Irish, then Spanish. .... Downturn 5 years ago - my don't you guys look silly and wrong

  18. mike68

    7,980 posts.

    i figured as much

    looks like you and sector have plenty in common, all hot air and no substance

  19. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    We obviously hold the wealth and are still your landlords thanks to our obvious acumen

  20. mike68

    7,980 posts.

    so at 3:39 am this morning you tell us that you are a landlord?

    But my recollection is you have sold all your investment properties. Im pretty sure that is what you have posted in the past

    and I have bought one just recently

    bizarre, hot air and senility too

  21. Malaga

    1,961 posts.

    So Mike you are posting at 6 10am Perth time that you are a landlord. You said 2 years ago you had money and could buy then. So now you are buying after property has risen and now it is going to crash Sounds to me like making bad investments runs in your genes.

  22. mike68

    7,980 posts.

    i didnt buy in Perth

    I guess you have already forgotten the previous discussion about investing outside your own back yard. Seems senility is a common theme here amongst the oldies here

    yep 6am and off on a bike ride when the sun comes up, whats the harm in that?

    do you have a recent post somewhere of mine which says property is going to go down or going to go up?

    I bought for yield, something considered fairly affordable and I also bought something really nice too on big block of land, not some banged up pile of crap you find for top dollar in Perth and other states

  23. Malaga

    1,961 posts.

    No harm in going for a bike ride at 6 am. But posting on hotcopper about being a landlord. Are you trying to social climb now?

  24. mike68

    7,980 posts.

    its not new information

  25. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Your guess where in the world I am writing from, certainly not from a 2 bedroom property in Maylands. Still a landlord , unlike you I am proactive thus living the dream.

    Also some great buys in Spain as a base in Europe that I would share with you if I sensed your genuine interest.

  26. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Plus now he is a closet bull , telling everyone not to buy , and buying after the horse has bolted. No doubt he realised we are right after all and is gently moving into our camp without upsetting his old allies.

  27. Fat Bloater

    11,849 posts.

    "Still a landlord , unlike you I am proactive thus living the dream. "

    Passive I'm happy to live at the expence of a landlord getting 0% return on his capital while I'm free as a bird.

    To top it off I've got more rights to the property than the owner.

  28. mike68

    7,980 posts.

    "Your guess where in the world I am writing from, certainly not from a 2 bedroom property in Maylands. Still a landlord , unlike you I am proactive thus living the dream. "

    well if you assume a class B IP address you are most likely posting from the same ISP as I am and that would be IINet

    Passive - IP: 124.148.xxx.xxx
    mike 68 - IP: 124.148.xxx.xxx

    jokes on you sunshine

  29. nata12

    4,283 posts.

    Also some great buys in Spain as a base in Europe that I would share with you if I sensed your genuine interest

    They could be worth quite a few Pesetas soon lol

    Wondering what the peseta will be worth though?


  30. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Same assumption that had me and Booz the same person. You had egg on your face then and on goes the saga.

  31. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Refreshing honesty but begs the question - why do you post here ?

  32. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Surprising how many folk are buying the cheaper apartments in Spain and Portugal as holiday venues. Obviously many who are cashed up from and trace their origins there and go back in the colder season here. Food is good and everything is cheap. Can't be bad for the local economy and cheaper than hotels etc.

    Also not a bad option for Aussies who don't favour the Asian lifestyle and love the European cultures. Good base to explore from and still cheap despite the currency correction.

  33. mike68

    7,980 posts.

    so what are you saying passive?

    the IP address logged against your posts right now are saying you are posting from the same subnet of IInet as I am

    And you live in Perth too

  34. nata12

    4,283 posts.


    Spain has some great places to visit or even retire there.
    I do love the southwest near jerez. Stunning and beautiful food as well as people.

    As an investment at this point in time it will be a shocker imo. Buy once they leave the euro in my humble opinion.

    Germany has to make a choice soon. " All in " lets go bankrupt together in some years ahead, or they are out.

    Elections in germany are in september and their const. Court decides probably in early october.

    Place your bets and hope you got it right :)

  35. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    More a base for convenience with nothing to lose if it takes time. Just a nice option to explore and many choices Nata - a lifestyle thing.

  36. Fat Bloater

    11,849 posts.

    "Refreshing honesty but begs the question - why do you post here ?"

    To spread the refreshing honesty P1.

  37. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Post in question was not from Perth , reiterates my point that majoring in minors is your forte. Deal with the issue for once.

    Netherlands taxation system way too generous as all mortgage holders given very generous , unsustainable I might add, direct tax concessions.

    Australia does not and hands those concessions to smaller number of investors. Herein lies the crux of the issue and try to stick to that rather than the incessant irrelevant and wrong observations that play the person and not the ball.

    Netherlands property market has NO bearing on ours.

  38. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    You'll keep

  39. mike68

    7,980 posts.

    Hey Passive

    Better let Apnic know they have problems with their IP addresses


    Because IInet has the full 124.148.x.x range and i dont think they have given a portion of the range to an internet cafe they run in Spain

    % Information related to ' -'
    inetnum: -
    netname: IINET-AU
    descr: iiNet Limited
    country: AU
    admin-c: NO20-AP
    tech-c: NO20-AP
    mnt-by: APNIC-HM
    mnt-lower: MAINT-AU-IINET
    mnt-lower: MAINT-AU-WESTNET
    remarks: -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    remarks: This object can only be updated by APNIC hostmasters.
    remarks: To update this object, please contact APNIC
    remarks: hostmasters and include your organisation's account
    remarks: name in the subject line.
    remarks: -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    mnt-irt: IRT-IINET-AU
    changed: hm-changed@apnic.net 20060302
    changed: hm-changed@apnic.net 20090817
    source: APNIC

  40. Fat Bloater

    11,849 posts.

    "Bit hard for you to comment fb when you live in a tent in a caravan park and you are SHORT on the rent"

    Malmoe I'm not sure what motivates your disinformation campaign but I live in a house.

    Multi-unit dwellings are for livestock.

  41. malmoe

    2,137 posts.

    Last time i walked out of my houses they had a door not a zip.make sure your footings are well hit in tonight as i hear there is a wind warning predicted

  42. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Netherlands old sun , stick to the subject. Post was not from Perth .

  43. 1nvstor

    840 posts.

    How are any of these posts relevant? lol

  44. AuCu

    1,772 posts.

    Below is another similar story from the USA, i.e. the crisis rolls on.

    And yes: "The price drop began in 2008 and it won't stop. In my opinion prices will keep coming down 2 or 3% a year until they end up around half of what they were," says Mr Stellio.

    IMO Oz. house prices might stay stagnant for 5/8/10 years, they might go down, they certainly won't go up in anything like real terms. Then again, Abbott might fix the whole system by suitably modifying NG.

    The house he bought 11 years ago for $280,500 is worth $137,000 today. Factoring in the loan that added interest to his principal, and deferred property tax bills that accrued when he was sick with colon cancer, the part-time automotive repair salesman is now paying off a $300,000 mortgage.

    Read more: http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2013/8/16/property/mortgage-malaise-us-banks-taste-their-own-medicine#ixzz2cKhrB429

  45. Fat Bloater

    11,849 posts.

    "Last time i walked out of my houses they had a door not a zip.make sure your footings are well hit in tonight as i hear there is a wind warning predicted"

    Malmoe I know your hard at reading and understanding but I live in a house furthermore any wind damage is the landlord's expence not mine.

    Just living the easy life while someone else volunteers to subsidise my living expences by renting to me for peanuts while all their capital is tied up going nowhere.

  46. acorn

    3,138 posts.

    FB ,

    You quite often mention the benefits of being a tenant in this climate with respect to financial freedom . I would agree that there has been the opportunity to make better use of funds in the mean time , albeit if you have the skills and experience to pull it off . Not everyone does , however.

    Your comment about having more rights to the property than the owner . Would you be able to expand on that a bit or give us a few examples ? Might even be a good subject to start another thread ?

  47. Passive 1

    2,681 posts.

    Interesting subject Acorn.

    Real case study of a person who owned a lovely home in Mindarie , northern suburbs of Perth. Conventional wisdom was that homes were on the nose , bank managers telling folk to bale out thanks to equity driven research etc they perennially have come across their desks. He sold his home for $290k. Came to rent my house , same suburb , further back from the ocean without the views , rent paid by the interest on his money in the bank and off to LA , Europe - life was great and as far as he was concerned we were all mugs. He had the use of my home , low rent etc. , 7 years on despite all the negative prognostications market surged , and yes the doom and gloom is not new ,I decided to sell, gave him notice and he was a bit miffed. Then when the agent came and told him my house was worth just shy of 600k his air of entitlement caused him to abuse the agent.He felt he should have a share of the growth. He did not have a right to anything and it dawned on him that his old place was worth 900k. Essentially he had to start the whole home ownership treadmill again.

    Are they really having the use of our homes at a reduced rate - they can believe what they want but the power is with the owner and ultimately so is the reward.

  48. acorn

    3,138 posts.

    Thanks Passive .

    That's not really where I was heading with my question . People who choose to be in or out of the market really need to accept the consequences . I'm sure that some people got out of property and into something else at the right time and made a killing . Good on them for that . That's not my game as I don't think I'm experienced enough to pick it so that's why I'm in both . I just try to be sensible and conservative with capital protection my first priority , growth second.

    What I was getting at with my question was more landlord/tenant experiences , particularly with respect to rights. E.g. In certain circumstances in Vic , landlords are not allowed on to their own property without the expressed permission of the tenant . It hasn't happened to me but I have heard of a few situations where it had and it ended badly for all parties concerned.

    Thought it might be nice to discuss a different aspect of property for a change :^)

  49. Malaga

    1,961 posts.

    Here's a story for you playing out right now. Couple plus 5 kids combined leases property. Complaints start day one. Not good enough for princess. I fix the trivial items. Property manager breaches them for not cleaning, gardening and decay of house. Trivial complaints from Princess escalate how dare she not have the house of her dreams with 5 kids, partner on low income and under 30 years old. So in my nice way I say, get stuffed you can break lease and find something better. Now I am the landlord from hell mum, dad, all claiming I want them out where can they go. Stiff the lease expires in 3 months and I have politely told them that the lease will not be renewed. I do not have to give any reason, a lease is a fixed term when it is up they can give 14 days notice they are leaving. I have to give 60 days notice before no lease renewal. Because I am such a nice sweet guy I have now given them the chance to find their dream home earlier.

  50. Justis

    12,182 posts.

    Passive, interesting situation. Time and time again property just keeps going up in value over the long term.

    When I moved into what was my rental property some years ago it was to renovate, sell and buy else where. At the time I was looking at getting the handsome sum of $140k which looked pretty good considering it cost $40k. I didn't end up selling and am glad I didn't, it now has subdivision potential with of 350sqm lots in a redevelopment close by selling for $350-$400.

    Acorn, the rental tenancy act does off protection for both landlords and tenant. The main thing is to follow them to the letter.

    Landlords are entitled to do inspections but must give adequate notice. This allows the tenant to clean up but on inspection you can get an idea if they are doing any damage

    If a tenant is late with payment, issue a default notice straight away. Same goes if there are any other breaches.

    Some breaches allow for a eviction notice of say two weeks and I'm not sure if it's 30 or 60 days notice that can be given for the tenant to vacate without needing a reason.

    There are occasions that tenants will try and drag things out but if you follow the guidelines you can usually get them out in a time frame that the bond will cover unpaid rent.

  51. Justis

    12,182 posts.

    malaga, had one tenant many years ago that started getting behind on the rent, I was too soft and accepted the excuses and promises that they would get back on top.

    Final I gave them a eviction notice, then I get a call from some welfare group pleading that I let them stay and that they promise to pay areas.

    Well sorry the bank still expects me to make payments regardless and I had already been to lenient.

  52. Malaga

    1,961 posts.

    The law and other agencies are on the side of the tenant. But if you do things by the book then you come out ok. The law of averages means you will get bad tenants now and again. Drove past my worst house yesterday missed it first go, had to reverse back. The tenant has cut down all the bushes, mowed and cleaned the grounds trimmed trees and removed it all. Family from the country and they are great just saved me about a thousand dollars. The thirty year old Princess sits out the back smoking and polishing off the Jim Beam and bitches about lifes NOT FAIR.

  53. Fat Bloater

    11,849 posts.

    "The law and other agencies are on the side of the tenant"

    That's right Malaga.

    Australia has one of the legal systems money can buy.

  54. Malaga

    1,961 posts.

    Fat bloater I have been to the magistrates court three times. Once as a tenant and twice as a landlord and won all three. Costs about $20 and a couple of hours of your time. Photos, records and bit of gab and it is easy. I never let PM' S do the talking most go to water and give in.

  55. acorn

    3,138 posts.

    That's interesting about not renewing the lease. Over here I'm not sure you can evict a tenant without a good reason .

    I think you have to demonstrate the reason i.e. you're moving in . If you don't shift in and just re-lease , a determined tenant can take action . Sure , in plenty of cases , you can tell a few porkies and call their bluff but i believe if you get caught out , there can be trouble.

    I don't know if I'd like to rent my house to a lawyer ?

    That said , for me it's all about picking the right tenant in the first place. I use a couple of rental managers. It has taken me a fair while to find a good one ( found a few bad ones ) but they certainly can save you a lot of dramas .

  56. Malaga

    1,961 posts.

    You are not really evicting the tenant you are just not renewing their lease. Some landlords get rid of tenants by increasing the rent and not doing maintenance and in that case the law rightly looks after the tenant. Only had one case of tenant complaining about not renewing lease, went to consumer protection which has no power and only mediates. Showed the guy all the records of complaint about the property and said I was going to fix up property, no dramas.

  57. Justis

    12,182 posts.

    yeah under the tenancy act you can give a tenant 60 day notice to vacate without a reason

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